Comments on: Reshaping the Adult and Community Education (ACE) Market http://www.ed.co.nz/2010/02/22/reshaping-the-adult-and-community-education-market/ Tertiary education news and views Tue, 07 Feb 2012 21:02:11 +1300 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1 By: Dave Guerin http://www.ed.co.nz/2010/02/22/reshaping-the-adult-and-community-education-market/comment-page-1/#comment-121 Dave Guerin Thu, 25 Feb 2010 23:21:17 +0000 http://www.ed.co.nz/?p=181#comment-121 I agree totally John. My post was too long to go into detailed analysis of the PWC report, but I had read it very closely and support your analysis. It's a pity because the debate should have been about how useful ACE was compared to other things, not about whether it was the holy grail. I agree totally John. My post was too long to go into detailed analysis of the PWC report, but I had read it very closely and support your analysis. It’s a pity because the debate should have been about how useful ACE was compared to other things, not about whether it was the holy grail.

]]> By: John MacCormick http://www.ed.co.nz/2010/02/22/reshaping-the-adult-and-community-education-market/comment-page-1/#comment-120 John MacCormick Thu, 25 Feb 2010 08:59:48 +0000 http://www.ed.co.nz/?p=181#comment-120 The PWC report is an embarrassment - a real discredit to PWC and its ACE clients. The economic benefits are so ridiculously overstated I had to re-read the paper 3 times before I could convince myself they didn't mean it as some kind of a joke. Take the "increased future earnings" estimate. They asked people what happened to their incomes since taking their last ACE class, and their expectations of future earnings. 50% of this actual or expected increase in earnings was then attributed to the ACE course. First, I'd speculate that people are more likely to take ACE courses when they're not in full-time employment. If so, then its mad to attribute subsequent increases in income to the ACE course rather than to the fact someone has returned to full-time work or is expecting to. Worse than that, PWC's estimate assumes that all previous education and work experience isn't influencing one's future income track. My future income depends far more on my current and past career track, my past degrees, etc, than on whether I took a conversational german class on Wednesday evenings last year. The collected heroic assumptions and leaps of reasoning in this report undermine PWC's reputation - looks like they rented out their brandname for use in a political lobbying gimmic. I too am waiting with interest to see what entrepreneurial spirits are unleashed in this space now - not least by some of the many PPTA members who previously moonlighted in ACE courses! The PWC report is an embarrassment – a real discredit to PWC and its ACE clients. The economic benefits are so ridiculously overstated I had to re-read the paper 3 times before I could convince myself they didn’t mean it as some kind of a joke.
Take the “increased future earnings” estimate. They asked people what happened to their incomes since taking their last ACE class, and their expectations of future earnings. 50% of this actual or expected increase in earnings was then attributed to the ACE course.
First, I’d speculate that people are more likely to take ACE courses when they’re not in full-time employment. If so, then its mad to attribute subsequent increases in income to the ACE course rather than to the fact someone has returned to full-time work or is expecting to.
Worse than that, PWC’s estimate assumes that all previous education and work experience isn’t influencing one’s future income track. My future income depends far more on my current and past career track, my past degrees, etc, than on whether I took a conversational german class on Wednesday evenings last year.
The collected heroic assumptions and leaps of reasoning in this report undermine PWC’s reputation – looks like they rented out their brandname for use in a political lobbying gimmic.

I too am waiting with interest to see what entrepreneurial spirits are unleashed in this space now – not least by some of the many PPTA members who previously moonlighted in ACE courses!

]]> By: Farrar fudging ACE figures « The Standard http://www.ed.co.nz/2010/02/22/reshaping-the-adult-and-community-education-market/comment-page-1/#comment-94 Farrar fudging ACE figures « The Standard Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:09:04 +0000 http://www.ed.co.nz/?p=181#comment-94 [...] and try and discredit the PWC analysis. Farrar summarises a recent rash of blog posts (here, here, here) attempting to do just [...] [...] and try and discredit the PWC analysis. Farrar summarises a recent rash of blog posts (here, here, here) attempting to do just [...]

]]> By: Paul Williams http://www.ed.co.nz/2010/02/22/reshaping-the-adult-and-community-education-market/comment-page-1/#comment-92 Paul Williams Tue, 23 Feb 2010 03:12:13 +0000 http://www.ed.co.nz/?p=181#comment-92 I fear the PWC report will not assist the ACE community in their campaign. There are many good reasons to fund ACE (and just like the PWC report, the Minister's Morrocan cooking example is likely misleading evidence), not least of all because it can cater to a group not well serviced by other providers. By way of a contrast, research by Allen Consulting Group estimated the net present value return on investment over twenty years for TAFE NSW was $6.40 (i.e. $1 generates benefits worth $6.40 over this period). Methodologically, these two exercises are chalk and cheese (and the Allen's work would withstand Matt Nolan's critique of PWCs) so it's not surprising PWC didn't review it (or at least didn't cite it). For those interested, the link is https://www.tafensw.edu.au/news/the-complete-package/ I fear the PWC report will not assist the ACE community in their campaign.

There are many good reasons to fund ACE (and just like the PWC report, the Minister’s Morrocan cooking example is likely misleading evidence), not least of all because it can cater to a group not well serviced by other providers.

By way of a contrast, research by Allen Consulting Group estimated the net present value return on investment over twenty years for TAFE NSW was $6.40 (i.e. $1 generates benefits worth $6.40 over this period). Methodologically, these two exercises are chalk and cheese (and the Allen’s work would withstand Matt Nolan’s critique of PWCs) so it’s not surprising PWC didn’t review it (or at least didn’t cite it). For those interested, the link is https://www.tafensw.edu.au/news/the-complete-package/

]]> By: Adult Community Education Benefits | Kiwiblog http://www.ed.co.nz/2010/02/22/reshaping-the-adult-and-community-education-market/comment-page-1/#comment-91 Adult Community Education Benefits | Kiwiblog Tue, 23 Feb 2010 01:02:27 +0000 http://www.ed.co.nz/?p=181#comment-91 [...] Guerin at the very good Education Directions blog looks at the future of ACE: The ACE market will be reshaped, rather than destroyed, because there [...] [...] Guerin at the very good Education Directions blog looks at the future of ACE: The ACE market will be reshaped, rather than destroyed, because there [...]

]]> By: Dave Guerin http://www.ed.co.nz/2010/02/22/reshaping-the-adult-and-community-education-market/comment-page-1/#comment-88 Dave Guerin Mon, 22 Feb 2010 22:03:24 +0000 http://www.ed.co.nz/?p=181#comment-88 For those wondering about Dean's term: "Autodidacticism (also autodidactism) is self-education or self-directed learning" (Wikipedia). My post was more about what's happened to date, but I want to follow on and look later at what ACE could be as Dean has suggested. Jennifer, I'm intrigued by your comments about the funding allocation process and wish I had some interns around to do some investigative work on it. TEC's contracting processes could often do with more examination, but it probably requires a good day or two to get to the bottom of it. For those wondering about Dean’s term: “Autodidacticism (also autodidactism) is self-education or self-directed learning” (Wikipedia). My post was more about what’s happened to date, but I want to follow on and look later at what ACE could be as Dean has suggested.

Jennifer, I’m intrigued by your comments about the funding allocation process and wish I had some interns around to do some investigative work on it. TEC’s contracting processes could often do with more examination, but it probably requires a good day or two to get to the bottom of it.

]]> By: Dean Carroll http://www.ed.co.nz/2010/02/22/reshaping-the-adult-and-community-education-market/comment-page-1/#comment-87 Dean Carroll Mon, 22 Feb 2010 21:52:25 +0000 http://www.ed.co.nz/?p=181#comment-87 Would a much more interesting debate have ensued had discussions centred around the role of autodidactism of ordinary people (from which much of adult and community education sprung within the Anglo-saxon tradition), and how this can be best supported, particularly in an age of significant changes to information technology? In this regard two books I found particularly illuminating (rather than dimming) are "The Intellectual Life of the British Working Classes" by Jonathan Rose (Yale University Press) and, of course, "The Coming of the Book" by Lucian Lebvre (Verso). Both are "lefty"; whatever that means these days. Would a much more interesting debate have ensued had discussions centred around the role of autodidactism of ordinary people (from which much of adult and community education sprung within the Anglo-saxon tradition), and how this can be best supported, particularly in an age of significant changes to information technology? In this regard two books I found particularly illuminating (rather than dimming) are “The Intellectual Life of the British Working Classes” by Jonathan Rose (Yale University Press) and, of course, “The Coming of the Book” by Lucian Lebvre (Verso). Both are “lefty”; whatever that means these days.

]]> By: Jennifer Kipfer http://www.ed.co.nz/2010/02/22/reshaping-the-adult-and-community-education-market/comment-page-1/#comment-85 Jennifer Kipfer Mon, 22 Feb 2010 08:14:08 +0000 http://www.ed.co.nz/?p=181#comment-85 Interesting observations. As an ex school-based ACE Co-ordinator whose position was made redundant due to the funding cuts I am watching the sector with interest. I agree that there will be interesting outcomes from the private sector moving into ACE provision and from courses growing from the grassroots, as it were. One of the areas that needs discussion, I fell, is the TEC - the Tertiary Education Commission and its appalling handling of the demise of ACE 'as we knew it'. There was NO consultation, discussion or warning of the cuts. There has been no justification other than the Moroccan cooking example and its ilk - also just anecdotal - for such a widespread slahing of the funding. However, a curious outcome that deserves closer scrutiny is the final decisions that were made for the allocation of 2010 funding. The stated work skills, literacy, etc courses have not only not been funded in some places, but have actually been cut completely. At the same time, some schools received MORE than they requested for overall programmes, including 'hobby' courses. In some geographical areas there is no such funding at all, yet in neighbouring geographical locations, 2 schools almost within walking distance received large amounts. While it is agreed that the sector needed a bit of a shake-up, what has happened is actually more like a final shake DOWN! Interesting observations. As an ex school-based ACE Co-ordinator whose position was made redundant due to the funding cuts I am watching the sector with interest. I agree that there will be interesting outcomes from the private sector moving into ACE provision and from courses growing from the grassroots, as it were.

One of the areas that needs discussion, I fell, is the TEC – the Tertiary Education Commission and its appalling handling of the demise of ACE ‘as we knew it’. There was NO consultation, discussion or warning of the cuts. There has been no justification other than the Moroccan cooking example and its ilk – also just anecdotal – for such a widespread slahing of the funding. However, a curious outcome that deserves closer scrutiny is the final decisions that were made for the allocation of 2010 funding. The stated work skills, literacy, etc courses have not only not been funded in some places, but have actually been cut completely. At the same time, some schools received MORE than they requested for overall programmes, including ‘hobby’ courses. In some geographical areas there is no such funding at all, yet in neighbouring geographical locations, 2 schools almost within walking distance received large amounts.

While it is agreed that the sector needed a bit of a shake-up, what has happened is actually more like a final shake DOWN!

]]> By: TVHE » Exaggerating the benefits of adult community education http://www.ed.co.nz/2010/02/22/reshaping-the-adult-and-community-education-market/comment-page-1/#comment-77 TVHE » Exaggerating the benefits of adult community education Sun, 21 Feb 2010 22:11:40 +0000 http://www.ed.co.nz/?p=181#comment-77 [...] is a “sister post” to a discussion on the adult community education market over at the Education Directions blog.  Dave Guerin has substantially more knowledgeable about the [...] [...] is a “sister post” to a discussion on the adult community education market over at the Education Directions blog.  Dave Guerin has substantially more knowledgeable about the [...]

]]>